Report on the Council Meeting held on 27th September 2006
The Council considered a paper on the Future Governance of the Law Society
The President explained that the debate would be in two parts
Firstly there would be a debate on function of Council then a vote on size of Council followed by a debate on size and composition of Council. A debate would then follow on the Council member motions.
Dennis Cameron moved an amendment the paper that there should be no change to the present set up and the President explained she considered that to make this amendment would prevent a debate on the function of Council.
After some discussion the President said the status quo was an option but we needed to discuss the function of Council before debating the size of Council.
The debate opened. Lucy Scott Moncrief spoke on the importance of Law Reform and the need to have a strong link between the Committees and the Specialist Council
Malcolm Fowler emphasised the Importance of Council as a Debating Chamber hence a Council of 30 was too small.
Graham White thought an executive body was needed
Tim O'Sullivan said the problem was a smaller Council more work for Council members. Need to have good working relationship with local societies. Need to know how smaller number of Council members will be supported.
Chris Clark supported Dennis Cameron’s motion.
John Holder There are many members of profession not involved in local law society. I want as small a Council as possible.
Alison Parkinson wants a smaller Council Considers it is possible to represent profession with fewer council members. Need to take bold step to show we mean change.
Sara Chandler need to be representative. Looking at two roles governance and representation hope for model 2 with a larger council.
Helen Clarke need a defined clear role. Council must watch cost of regulation or we will be irrelevant to the profession. We need a new structure and Committees. Profession will not pay for large committees. Gray areas not put to Council. Need to control large expenditure and policies.
Christina Blacklaws Said there are wo types of solicitor. Those who define themselves by location and those who define themselves by area of practice. Committees need more resources Council need to represent disempowered members of profession. Election to Council though Local Law Societies is not enough
David Mackintosh No great tension between CGB and Council In favour of model 2, Need to work beyond local law societies. Against delays or the status quo. Doubt many local law society want as large a Council as possible. Failure to downsize would mean we would need to send it out to the profession which would result a much smaller Council than we want.
David Merkel mentions solicitor with a disability who was helped by the law society and another person who was not. A small council would be a small cabal.
Charles Fraser most members of the profession just want to get on with lives and have no time for committees. Problem Council not aware of what is happening in committees and Council is too large to debate properly.
Bob Heslett supports Mr. Macintosh and warned against seduction of delay. We need to move on representation. SRA moving very fast on education, investigate powers and discrimination. Problems with Legal service Bill. Government could seek to run legal profession Need to be able to represent the profession and provide it with services.
Michael Renouf In favour of model 2. Need to have an EU seat. Very significant differences between EU law and national law. Very useful to have EU council members.
There are a large of solicitors practicing outside England and Wales who need an international seat on Council.
Simon Davis in favour of a Council of 50 with an executive of 15, Supports Model 2
At 12.15 the President observed that she had 19 more speakers. The vote on the models would have to be after lunch. There was the question of whether those leaving should be allowed an indicative vote. This gave rise to the question of whether Council was in Committee or not. The President wanted to allow an indicative vote for six Council members leaving after lunch.
Graham White objected.
Council voted to go into Committee
Council voted to go into Council By one vote it was agreed to allow those leaving at lunch time to vote.
Derek French would not advise a client to commit himself without further information. Council was effective in holding Main Board to account over the proposals to purchase a property in Lemington Spa. Not sufficient information to take a decision
Dennis Cameron pointed out previously argued for the David Mackintosh as deputy vice president argued for the expansion of Council. If the profession
Not status quo wants proper review of what is needed. Not Bingo card voting
Nigel Dodds agrees with Mr. Mackintosh now. Council of 75 worked well but came to grief over conveyancing, failure to defend legal aid and a sexual scandal resulted in Luddites being elected. There was a lack of diversity and too much emphasis on geographic seats. Too large a Council incapable of acting decisively.
David Mackintosh issue was need to revitalise Council and not possible to have people to vote themselves off Council so Council had to be expended in order to reduce it in size
Sue Nelson Logically Council too large but pragmatically against a decision to reduce size of Council as this would divert from discussion of real issues. We need to stand up to the SRA. Need to have tension between Council and CGB part of checks and balances. There is a problem of the third floor syndrome as once people become office holders they tend to vote with the other office holders. Need to deal with these issues not size of Council
Linda Lee Supports Sue Nelson. We should not to be throwing pieces in air
Brian Hughes Demographic Council member and specialist members. Give every law society member two votes one for demographic members and one for specialist members. Favours 90 Council members and executive of 25,
Rodney Warren Profession wants us to be a representative body. Size of Council not significant needs to change the structure, Need to be bold today to make changes. I agree with model 2. Need to make bold changes.
Mike Williams I was attracted to Mr. Heslett arguments but we do not know what structures we need. We are rushing too quickly to a conclusion without further research. Strange that we have a new chief executive and we are rushing ahead with out giving him a chance to develop his own views.
Stanley Williams No change is not an option. Most people want model 2. Need to know more about the delegation. Need proper representation of solicitors in Commerce and Industry on Council
David Dixon
Support Dennis Cameron
Richard Barnett Debate all about me, me, me .Danger of solicitors choosing other regulators
Razi Shah Meant to be new representative body. Only one chance left with the profession. Emailed solicitors in my constituency. They want effective representation. Profession does not care about numbers just want effective representation.
Keith Etherington Expected a debate on function. Unfortunately debate has been on size. Need to look to new ways. Problem is not size. Smaller Council over representation of elderly male council. Can not risk diversity today simply to have a smaller Council
Philip Hamer We should as a Council will retain financial control of the SRA. Other work you need to produce a budget and other financial issues. We run a twenty million pound business. We have to confront Council. The larger body will need to supervise the executive.
Nigel Day Numbers not important. We need to be an effective representative body. You have to identify your constituency. We do not engage with the constituency. We need to communicate with them. Size not important. I favour model 2 and we should move ahead. Need to stop navel gazing.
Michael Singleton Wife is a solicitor and she holds him to account every day. Once you are on Council no longer just a solicitor you are associated with the Law Society.
Favours a Council of 50 to 70
Michael Orton-Jones Need to concentrate on representation. My impression is nobody gives a damn about solicitors in financial services. Could we have people on the Council who know what they are talking about.
Frank D'Souza Feeling problem is not numbers but communication. Gazette should provide more information about proceeding in Council
Michael Garston First came onto Council as elected to one of the New Seats introduced by the Napier Reforms and now is on Council for a Middlesex Constituency. Supports reasoning but not conclusion of Mackintosh and Heslett.To deal with issues raised by Helen Clarke the issue is agenda setting and process . The agenda has set by Government. And now to deal with the SRA and the SCA.
we had to be fit or the purpose.
Andrew Caplen need to look at function. Are we going to be just a talking shop or are we going to do more. You will need a larger body but you will need to move quickly. If you cut representation number you will loose people.
Tony Prichard Council is working quite well. Attendance is high compared with Parliament. A small Council could be a Cabal but we need to demonstrate change.
Ian Lithman feel like I on a carousel. When I was on Council membership committee I thought 33 members would be sufficient. When I came onto Council I realised that a larger Council was necessary
Robin ap Cynan Council is a machine for governing the law society Started top down not bottom up We have not look at the number of people needed.
We have a data gap. Need to look at proportionally and subsidarity. Not under a need to act today. Model 2 can be made to fit. Model three would be a nightmare
Rod Mole The functions fall into three groups law reforms services and the voice of the profession . The first two are carried out well. It is the third function that is unsatisfactory. We need to be the voice of the profession. At present we do not this function.
An indicative vote was taken on four options including a paraphrase of Dennis Cameron motion to keep the status quo.
The President said she was working on a paper to indicate how Council would work in future.
Lucy Scott-Moncrief should look at function as well as size next week
Andrew Holroyd already looking at the structure on the LSGG Should we have two new members elected-
Sue Nelson LSGG should be scrapped as a sign of a new beginning
John Goulden the perfect is the enemy of the good. Never have perfection and we will need to review matters any way in three years.
Michael Garston We need to concentrate on policy
Helen Clarke papers need to be tagged to show where they have come from, what changes have been made and whether they have set or alter policy
Indicative Vote Results
82 54 for model two
5 for model 1
23 for model 4
Dennis Cameron asked fir his motion to be postponed to the meeting next week.
Still in Committee debated size.
Mr Mike Williams wanted to speak about LSGG . I support Sue Nelson proposal that the LSGG.
We now need to address how we should address function rather than size
Ian French
Agree with previous speakers. Voted Council should be as large as necessary to be representative
Tim O'Sullivan presented the report of the Council Membership Committee's Views on the Governance Paper
Sarah Chandler need to look at regional representation Need to look at boards Need to look at how we should balance various parts of the profession.
Jeffrey Forrest The phase Turkeys voting for Christmas was used twice. Torn between model 2 and Dennis Cameron's motion. A better analogy how many angels can dance on a pin head..
Chris Welton if we were advising a client
Poor marketing to remove some one representative and replace them with some 100 miles away. Need to see a model of a 70 member Council
Dennis Cameron Schedule of numbers I have a feeling Council does not want to give a number at this stage
Nigel Dodds We have a good idea of what is required of Council .We need to make a decision now. Spent a whole day on the matter. We should do it now. Council membership committee's view now outdated in view of the vote. When I was chair of Council membership we looked at what you could achieve with a 70 to 75 Council. If you go larger loose if you go smaller you lose. Enlarged Council has failed.
Bob Heslett Mentioned the regulatory advisory group ,Meet the regulation Board had a very good meeting, One thing that comes out matters move so fast that it is nor always possible for Council as whole to respond. There will need to be a delegation. We are trying to create a commercial organisation. As an indicative position I would say 60 Bring in the magic five local law societies.
Michael Franks
Very difficult Think what will be lost from representation if you take seats away,
Charles Fraser Need information before we make a decision
Nigel Day
General feeling we need look to ourselves. A general feeling model 2 is the right one. Avoid the numbers question
Look at committee structure. Whether we need a representative board
Look at local societies
Work on interim arrangements
Christina Blacklaws Listen to Mr. Dodds Seduced by his proposals to put it bed. Need a decision today.
Malcolm Fowler I want to talk about the elephant in the room Need to address the desire for a small Council and what would happen
Against smaller Council would mean that we would be their delegates which would be a disaster.
Peter Farthing numbers game needs to be played. Set up an expectation in the Profession that the size of Council is an issue. It is possible if we take a decision today it can be dealt with at the AGM 2007
Fraser Whitehead Unfair as people who have left can not vote on the size of Council
David Taylor proposed that the question be put.
The President said that as we are in Committee so we can not move to a debate.
Sue Nelson ask Council whether they want to take a debate
Linda Lee do not know how many people left
Mike Williams write no number today
Tim O'Sullivan My person view we need around seventy . Very difficult to decide what seat to lose.
Kevin Martin This has been before Council many times. The most controversial element of the Napier. Profession want a reduced size of Council . Concern about message
Stanley Williams Vote on middle band. Do not understand figures produce. Groups spilt up to what the y do and who employs them
Philip Hamer As treasurer this has been a complete waste of time and money . Need to look at new methods of representation.
Derek French motion. Had confidential information. Should I withdraw motion.
The President could Mr. Warren assist.
Rodney Warren withdraw mention move to part 2
Andrew Caplan matters looked at by access to Justice Committee.
Motion withdrawn and Council moved into Part 2
The Vice President LSGG could be disbanded if that is the will of Council. More thinking will need to be carried out
Sue Nelson There will need to a CGB meeting to review the LSGG
Desmond Hudson
Not appropriate to comment on Governance
Work well under way as how we can we can be an effective representative body while not increasing expenditure
Start work to try to resolve how to separate Regulation from Representation and how to manage the funding
Working on how to generate income for the society using the find a solicitors pages on the website.
Council meting ended 16:54 with the result of the second vote not being given.
The result of the second vote were announced the next day with a very small majority in favour of no change in the numbers now
